4.6 Sixth interview with both experts on 1 September 2011
Like the last time, the experts meet the subject in a large room at Ila prison and detention center. The Norwegian Correctional Services have approved that the visit take place without a glass wall between the subject and the experts. As in the first conversation, there were three conference tables between the experts and the subject and two prison guards were present during the conversation. The subject showed up in transportation belts with his right hand free.
The conversation lasted for nearly three hours.
The experts initially ask how the subject is doing now. He answers: Battle morale is at 30% now. It was 100% before the operation. The subject has made the scale himself. He reports that 0% is indifference, 10% is unlivable, 20% is OK, 50% is the upper limit of fighting morale in the prison, and 60% are days when one is a bit demotivated in freedom. It is my personal measuring scale.
When asked, the subject denies feeling gloomy, weak, depressed, sad, regretful, self-blaming, ashamed or worried. He does not experience lack of initiative or lack of joy. He has not had and does not have thoughts about wanting to end his life or harm himself. You misunderstand, he says. The scale is all about fighting morale in relation to our revolutionary way. I’m doing fine. The use of such adjectives as you mention are not used. It does not work.
The experts then ask which variables in him change when fighting morale goes down. He replies: It’s the serotonin level. Dipping tobacco, smoke and contact with a PC increases the serotonin level. And I’m looking at phase 3, the trial, as an important motivation for my future life.
The experts ask if the subject can describe some feelings that he had in the period where the fighting morale dropped to 10%, which he says is the lowest level it has ever had. He says: I never reached the apathy limit.
Despite repeated questions from the experts, the subject is unable to find terms that could describe his emotions at that time, or now. He is also unable, even after repeated questions, to identify concepts that could describe his emotions in the days before the criminal acts. The subject answers all questions of that nature by referring to strategy, morale and reward systems.
The subject says however that long-term research has shown that one can keep morale up by using smoke, dipping tobacco, music, candy, good food and coffee. The best candies are «Krokodiller» and «Heksehyl». It is also good for the revolutionary fighting morale to watch your favorite series on TV.
The experts say that this sounds like fairly normal stimuli for most people. The subject says: No, this is a military strategy in single cell structures. It is an essential part of the single cell – reward system in revolutionary science. When you are active so long as a dormant cell, you can not engage in pep-talks. I have used the system during the last four years. New military strategies open a need for new reward systems.
The subject says he has tested the system on himself. He is asked for examples, and says: Used an iPod when I went for a walk. By listening to ideological songs I got motivation. He adds: During the first period in prison I had nothing, not even candy, and my serotonin level dropped.
The subject says he has used the reward system over many years. In practice, I had no one to talk to, he says. After the ordination, everything had to be done by myself alone.
The experts ask the subject if he has ever used drugs. No, I have never used drugs, he replies, with one exception, I have used marijuana twice in total. Both times when I was using steroids in 2010.
The subject denies having ever used the drugs amphetamine, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, GHB, or any kind of addictive drugs. He has had a moderate consumption of alcohol, with few intakes over the recent years.
The subject himself adds: I have used the energy drink «Red Bull» and also eaten «ECA stack» pills a total of five times in my life. Three of the pills I took two weeks before the operation on 22 July 2011, and then I took a pill the same day as the operation took place, maybe 30 minutes before. The subject explains to the experts that «ECA» is a mixture of ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin. I ordered the components and made it myself. Use it to improve performance and stay awake.
The subject says that he has used anabolic steroids a few times in his life. The subject says he had his very first experience with steroids when he was 20 years old. It was a short cure, he says, and I did not repeat it later.
The last two years he has used a total of three steroid cycles. I wanted to build strength and speed, he says.
The first cycle was from February to May 2010, the subject explains. He says he only used steroids and that he gained about 7 kg.
The second cycle was from December 2010 to February 2011, he says. He used the drug Winstrol. He gained about seven kilograms also this time. The subject says he trained a lot in parallel with this, trained hard and got bigger.
The third cycle was from 27 April to 15 June, when the subject says he took four Dianabol pills daily. It is muscle-building, he says. The subject says that from 15 June to 22 July, he took a total of five pills daily with Stanozolol, which is sold as Winstrol. Winstrol preserves muscle mass, he says.
I took them, and I trained because I was planning to become a one man army, he says. We are really against using steroids, but it is allowed as a military strategy, the subject adds.
At this point in the conversation, the subject starts saying that if Labor had changed its immigration policy in time, his operation in Norway would not have been necessary. Then we would have helped our Swedish brothers instead, he says. The experts ask what the help would have consisted of in that case. There are, as in Norway, major problems with robberies and rapes. So an operation there has to be adapted to the local conditions, he says.
The experts agree with the subject to attempt to complete the collection of anamnestic data. The subject consents to this, and the topic of our Nordic brothers is thereby abandoned.
About the year 2009, the subject explains that he completed his compendium in November. He says: I tried to get the more moderate essays published, but I had no publisher. I sent a couple of essays to the newspaper Aftenposten, but they were not accepted. I told my mom and friends that I was on tour to get publicity for the book. But in reality, I was travelling to buy weapons.
In February 2010, the subject was working with «e-mail farming», and says he got 9000 friends on Facebook, as well as 6000 e-mail addresses. The goal was to distribute the compendium online, via 10 000 e-mail addresses. I was careful about websites that use very strong symbols, the subject says. Had to make sure I stayed away from the sites monitored by PST (the Norwegian Police Security Service).
I saved the compendium and the e-mail addresses in a very safe place, the subject says. All evidence must be removed before the next phase. All tracks must be deleted from phase to phase. When asked the subject says: Will not say where the chip is located. In principle it may be wise to keep some copies of the compendium, just in case. I believe there is technology that can locate chips of this type.
The subject goes on to say: The police has the technology to wiretap your phone even if it is turned off. The battery must be removed. The police has a type of remote control, it is remote controlled from their side. There is no electric circuit in microchips, but some types can send rays anyway.
About surveillance, the subject says that he for the last three years – 2009, 2010, and 2011 – was afraid he was wiretapped. He says: There are many different lists for monitoring. I was looking for a way to verify whether I was on such a list. Thought I could already be on the watch list of a European intelligence agency. So I regarded it as a test when I was buying weapons, then it was unlikely that I was on watch lists anyway. But as long as it did not cost anything, I just as well took out the cell phone battery.
The subject says that he also took the battery out of his cell phone during a visit to Prague in 2010. I was good at hiding clues, he said. When asked, he explains that he took the battery out of the phone both to avoid being registered on the base stations, and to avoid wiretapping. In general, the last year I tried to leave the phone at home, he says. I also used technology to hide my IP address.
The subject says he has been thinking a lot about wiretapping the last couple of years. I took my precautions, he says, but did not see any certain indications before June 18, 2011. Then I put together a number of factors.
The incident happened while the subject lived on his farm in Østerdalen. That day I realized I was being watched, he says. First I saw a police patrol by the road, then I saw a car with an extra antenna, and I had the feeling it was a civilian police car. It was suspiciously parked, 17 kilometers from the farm.
Now the PST is on my farm installing cameras, the subject thought at that time. It was unlikely to be local police, since they had a civilian police car. They were parked next to a bus stop and there were two men in the front seats.
When I got home, the barn door was left wide open and the subject thought there still might be someone inside the house. He waited for 20 minutes, and says: I thought about fighting my way to the Glock and then keep fighting. But I thought it was too much opposition, and that it was better to surrender without a fight.
It appears that the subject on this day was sure that surveillance cameras had been installed on the farm. He went searching for cameras inside the house when he got home. He says: Checked for cameras on all potential places. They have stopped using microphones now, they use tiny cameras instead. I checked all the cracks and all the holes, natural places, but I found nothing. I thought it would be rational for them to install cameras, as they did with Al Qaeda. Plenty of evidence there.
The subject says he has had thoughts about surveillance by cameras since February 2010. At that point, he considered getting detection equipment to find any cameras, but ended up searching carefully around him.
About the influence by infection, the subject says that the thought of infections became more relevant from 2010. The subject became more and more irritated with people who walk around infecting others. It is irresponsible. I’ve always been a healthy person, he says, I have never been ill and I am proud of it. A hypochondriac mentality is the same as a losing mentality, in my opinion.
When asked about how the surroundings noticed that the subject was annoyed with infectious people, he says that mom noticed it. The subject says he purchased a face mask, which he used at certain times in the apartment at home with his mother. Do not think it could have been worn for more than maybe half an hour all in all, the subject says. He does confirm, however, to have been so worried about infection that he discussed the use of face masks indoors with his general physician.
My mother managed to infect me anyway, he says. Was annoyed at both her and her acquaintances.
In the period from February 2010 to July 2010, the subject went into what he calls the armor phase. He says: I made a prototype body armor for a potential battle with Delta (police special unit, experts’ note). I bought a box and put in it four bulletproof vest inserts, a pair of self-made bullet-proof pants, a bulletproof vest, and bulletproof shoes. And then I added smoke grenades and other things into the box, and drove to the Swedish border.
The subject explains how he found a deserted dirt road near Kongsvinger, and buried the box next to a mosquito pond, so hunting dogs could not find it. Hunting dogs are in fact bothered by mosquitoes, he adds. The subject says he spent a whole day digging and made a hole a meter and a half deep. He put the box in it, and camouflaged it with a rotten tree root on top. He says: It was terribly hard work, but I made it.
In July 2010 the subject started what he calls the weapons research phase. The subject says he spent a lot of time to familiarize himself with various issues relating to weapons. From the end of August 2010, this phase transformed into what the subject calls the weapons acquisition phase.
The subject says he realized that he had to document all the phases in the compendium. He says: Not for my own sake. It was for recruiting, for victory.
The conversation is ended.
Current status by both experts on 1 September 2011
The subject is awake, in clear consciousness, and aware of time and place and situation. Intelligence clinically assessed to be in the normal range. The subjects uses numbers and values to a greater extent than is common in normal speech. He uses a technical, unemotional and not very dynamic language in the conversation.
He appears emotionally shallow, with complete emotional distance to his own situation and to the experts. He is polite, and cooperates to the best of his ability. He laughs and smiles quite often, when related to issues concerning his own individual significance and/or his actions.
The subject has a light glaring look and blinks a lot. He appears with a somewhat reduced facial expression, and a somewhat rigid body language as he moves very little in the chair during the hours the conversation lasts.
The subject is not able to recognize or describe his own feelings. He appears thus to have alexithymia.
The subject ascribes his own use of normal stimuli like iPod listening, smoking, drinking coffee, and eating candy as military strategies in single cell structures in revolutionary science. He believes that watching a favorite series on TV is good for the revolutionary fighting morale. The subject thus interprets personal, private and trivial matters to have significance for geopolitical matters. The ideas are considered as delusions of grandeur.
During the conversation it is revealed that the subject since 2009 has feared that his phone has been tapped by a European intelligence agency. Since 2010 he suspected that surveillance cameras had been installed at home. He has considered acquiring detector equipment to find the cameras, but settled on doing a careful search. He has believed to be monitored by civilian police. He has felt vulnerable to infection. The ideas are considered as paranoid delusions.
The subject appears to have an unclear identity feeling, as he switches between describing himself in the singular and plural.
The experts have occasionally had difficulty in following the subject. He exhibits in parts of the conversation to have a moderate association disorder and formal thought disorder in the form of perseveration. There is no latency or thought block during the conversation.
The subject explains that he from February 2010 has made body armor to prepare for a possible battle with Delta. The phenomena are considered to be thoughts about extensive violence.
The subject appears totally without depressive thoughts in the form of guilt, shame, hopelessness, or thoughts about his own death by suicide. He denies experiencing sadness, joylessness, reduced initiative or lack of initiative. There is thus no evidence of a depressed mood.
The subject does not exhibit increased psychomotorical tempo, or perceived high mood. The subject’s speech is coherent and with normal syntax. He has no mind or voice strain. He is «affect stable». There is no evidence of lack of impulse control, neither verbally nor physically. There is thus no evidence of a high mood.
The subject denies the use of addictive drugs or illicit drugs, except having used marijuana twice in 2010. He confirms having taken a total of three anabolic steroids treatments, the last from April 27 to July 22, 2011. The subject denies using steroids or drugs of any kind at the time of questioning. He appears with no clinical suspicion of intoxication.
The subject denies having suicidal thoughts or plans.
5.7 Seventh conversation with both experts on 5 September 2011
Like the last time, the experts meet the subject in a large room at Ila prison and detention center. The Norwegian Correctional Services has approved that the visit take place without the use of a glass wall between the subject and the experts. As in the first conversation, there were three conference tables between the experts and the subject, and two prison guards were present during the conversation. The subject showed up in transportation belts, with his right hand free.
The conversation lasted for more than three hours.
It is agreed that thematically, the conversation will be about the period from August 2010, after we abandoned the collection of anamnestic data at that time in the sixth conversation. The subject was willing to do so.
About the period from August 2010 the subject says that this was four consecutive weeks of research to find weapons and ammunition. He decided to travel to the Czech Republic, and had thoughts that he might be able to move on to the Balkans in order to obtain weapons there.
I rented a car, he says, and took the ferry to Kiel, Germany. Then went on to Prague. The subject smiles and laughs. I was also to pick out «police insignias» (badges, experts’ note), he says. The subject states that he brought with him 50,000 in cash on the trip. There was partying at the hotel, and I tried to approach the community, but I could not get any weapons contacts, he says.
The subject says he lost the motivation to acquire weapons on the trip, and thought that he might as well get it legally, at home. Tried to ask the people I saw were criminals, the subject says, but they thought I was completely mad. Prague is a bad place to buy weapons. He returned to Norway empty-handed after ten days.
The subject explains that by having a membership in a hunting club, he was allowed to buy a Ruger Mini 14 (a semi-automatic rifle, experts’ note). The subject had already been a member of Oslo Pistol Club for a few years, so he resumed target practice. He estimates that he actively did target practice for about five months, from September 2010 until the start of 2011. He applied for permission to own a Glock (semi-automatic pistol, experts’ note).
In the months after his return from the trip to Prague, the subject says that he planned to get enough body armor. He thought he would try to acquire 10 magazines of ammunition, I like to be on the safe side, he says. He thought that the equipment had to be light, mobile, and rich in content. The subject says that at that time he still had not decided what the goal of his operation would be. He smiles: Had not yet decided if I should be stationary or mobile, he says. Did not discuss this with anybody, he adds.
Around the turn of the year 2010/2011, the subject says that he was in the «Explosion acquisition phase«. He explains that in this period, he studied bombs and acquired ingredients to make them. The subject says he bought a fuse and various chemical substances in December 2010.
The subject also says that in October and November 2010, he spent a lot of time writing a guide for others, so that future revolutionaries would have an approach to upcoming operations. He adds: Was very satisfied. Had high morale during this period.
In January and February 2011, the subject says he did a lot of shooting and a lot of training. He had started a Dianabol cycle in December 2010 and found that the training gave results, and that he got more muscles. When asked if he noticed any mental changes, the subject answers: There was perhaps 25% more gusto, and I was a little more motivated. The subject thinks this was due both to an improved self-image, and the chemical effect. Beyond this, he noticed no side effects or changes resulting from the drug he used. About the target practice in Oslo Pistol Club, the subject says: It was boring. Went twice a week and got the signatures I had to get.
The subject says that during the same period , he spent a lot of time in front of the PC, and used a lot of time to purchase minor things. He mentions caustic soda, acetone.
In January and February 2011, the subject was a lot at home in front of the PC. He says: I still had not planned which operation to carry out. Had thought of several, but it was not decided. Our organization is focused on single cells, so a lot of operations are therefore excluded. It is a question of what is doable for a single person.
The subject says that in January and February 2011, he considered taking over the NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) to broadcast propaganda, but many more people would be needed to do that. Thought about detonating the Halden nuclear reactor. Also thought about blowing up the royal castle, but Europe’s royal families should not be executed until 2020.
The subject says that already a year earlier, he thought about setting off a bomb at the congress of SV (Socialist Left Party) or the Labor Party. Considered it again at the beginning of 2011.
At this point in the conversation, the subject again starts speaking in the plural we form. We have declared a preemptive war against those who belong to category A and B, he says. There are about 4,500 people in total. They are all legitimate targets. The subject says that already towards the end his work with the compendium in 2009, he thought about the possibility of attacking the government building. He justifies this by saying: Wanted to give the government a warning first.
The subject says that during a period of approximately one year, from the winter of 2010 to the winter of 2011, he had a plan A. The plan consisted of placing 300 kilo car bombs by the government building, the Youngstorget square, and at the royal castle. This plan included that the subject envisioned to be able to include three bonus targets. This was the execution of the Blitzers, executions in the Dagsavisen newspaper, and executions in the socialist party headquarters.
The subject adds that he has pondered much over blowing up the royal castle. It would have drawn the whole world’s attention to our pan-European organization, he says, and the survival of the Norwegian ethnic group is the most important issue for us. The subject, however, was not sure how this would have been received by the militant revolutionaries. I am still not sure about the royal castle.
The subject explains: One of the motives was to reorganize the political scale. 120 million Europeans support the operation. 15% of Europeans support the operations directly, while 50% support the primary principles. In about 60 years, 40% will support the practical policy, and 70% of all men. I believe this will be the dominant political orientation.
The subject is very verbose and talks fast. There was a B plan as well, he says. It was to blow up the Labour Party’s national convention, blow up the Skup conference (Conference of the press, experts’ note), or execute traitors at Utøya island.
The subject says he had thoughts about possible executions on Utøya for the first time in the summer of 2010. He says: Thought it was a good target, isolated, police would have problems, access to 730 activists at one time, and no civilians present. The subject says that civilians are everybody not politically involved on the left.
The disadvantage of Utøya, the subject says, was that some of the people there were only potential traitors. And it’s not ideal with people under 18.
About the time from February 2011, the subject says: It became clear that I needed an operational base. Checked out «Småbruk.no», looking for what was available to rent.
The subject found a farm to rent, Åsta farm in the valley Østerdalen, and signed a lease there at the end of March 2011. The farm had sufficient land to allow ordering three tons of fertilizer from Felleskjøpet. He says: I ordered the fertilizer in late April. He says fertilizer is a necessary ingredient for making bombs. The subject said he had 3000 kg fertilizer delivered to the farm in the beginning of May 2011, about the same time as he moved into the place himself.
The subject says: I sold the Atos, and leased a car that I imagined could blow up the royal castle or the government building. Still had not decided.
The subject says that when plans for the operation became firm, he always envisioned a gigantic detonation by the government building. The ultimate target in Norway was the government building, he says. It was a goal to kill as many as possible, but I was delayed, and it turned out to be a failure. 200 to 500 deaths would be the «best case». Less than 12 was a failure. I expected to be able to listen to the P4 radio channel afterwards, he adds, then I would soon learn if the operation had been a success.
If I had heard on P4 afterwards that there were several hundred dead, I could have driven to Grønland (police station) to surrender, the subject says. In order to get international press, there must be a large impact, he says, one must exceed a certain limit. I imagined that Utøya could be a bonus operation when needed, or alternatively the newspaper Aftenposten’s premises, or the NRK.
Utøya was not firm until about a month before the operation, he says. Everything was delayed and put back, so I missed possible targets at the Labour Party’s national convention in April, as well as the Skup conference. I continued having Aftenposten and NRK on the list until quite close to the operation, he adds.
Had some reservations, would have preferred A and B, not C traitors, he says. The media have used the word children about the those who were on Utøya. That is a demonizing strategy against me, 80% of the people there were over 18 years old. In any case: In a Phase ll civil war, everybody above 15 years will be legitimate targets.
However, the subject believes that Utøya was not an optimal target. It was a barbaric operation to perform for me, he says, but it had to be done. The subject becomes intense as he continues: Every day my sisters get raped and maimed because of traitors. Now they will know how it feels.
The operation is more than justified by that, he adds, but in all there are several different motives. The operation was necessary for revenge, and it was a preemptive attack to prevent more activity from those individuals who betray Norway. The operation also functions as a warning. Most importantly, the subject says, the operation expresses my love for my own people and country, and is my contribution to getting rid of the evil in the country.
The subject thinks it is a paradox that the EU’s fight against terrorism has made it much harder to obtain explosives. Because it has become so difficult, the mass executions are results of the politicians’ tighter rules. Had it been easier, explosions could have been set up with higher precision. The future is in arms.
May and June 2011 are called the chemistry phase by the subject. The subject says he installed a ventilation hood and fan on the farm. He used a gas mask while working with the production of three car bombs, which he hoped could be finished at around May 15. It turned out that it was time consuming to make bombs, and at about June 15, the subject realized that he could not make more than one bomb of about one ton. He gave up the rest.
The subject explains that circumstances contributed to determine the design of the final operational plan. I had enough explosives to blow up the government building, he says. I was still considering Aftenposten and NRK, but the conferences I had thought of were no longer relevant since they had already been held. Utøya was the only remaining political event of the summer. The subject says he spent the week between June 15 to June 23, 2011 doing reconnaissance of Utøya before I made the final decision.
The subject decided to do the operation on July 22, which was the day when former prime minister Gro Harlem Brundtland was to give a speech on Utøya, according to the camp program.
The subject explains that it was not possible to wait until the autumn to carry out the operation. I had liquidity problems, he explains. There were bills for fertilizer, rent, lease, and I would have to buy food, and then the PC broke down. I could not afford a bad credit rating, because then I would not be able to lease a car. I could not wait any longer. The subject says he was about to give up in June 2011, because there were so many problems.
The last four weeks before 22 July 2011 started with the subject driving to the Swedish border, where he dug up the box containing the armor he had buried a year earlier. He says completing the bomb was slow and messy work.
The subject says he worked really hard, surely 7-8 hours a day. He worked with the production and completion of the bomb both at the barn and in the kitchen on the farm he rented. The subject explains in detail how he worked with the mill, cement mixers, and blenders. He bought new blenders several times, because the wear was great.
The subject also explains in detail how he worked with sulfuric acid. He distilled water and mixed it with the acid. The subject says that part of the work was performed at night. I got dust in my hair and face, the subject says. It was dangerous work. I finished the primary and secondary booster, it was a week’s work. Finished the Analfo just weeks before the operation (Analfo is according the subject one of the ingredients of the bomb, experts’ note). Loaded the finished 50 kilo units onto the car a week before.
He adds: It was a risky project. I could have blown my arms off when I was working with the aluminum powder. But I thought I had to sacrifice myself for my people.
The subject did a test detonation 2-3 km from the farm. He said he had visitors on the farm three times during June and July 2011. XXXXX, the girlfriend of the previous tenant of the farm, came by in early June. I woke up and saw a text message in which she said she wanted to stop by to fetch something. I would have had to execute her if she revealed me. Was thinking I could have slept in the woods if she had to be executed, and then I could go for Aftenposten and NRK afterwards.
XXXXX saved her life by coming by two days later, the subject says. In addition, there was a beekeeper in charge of beehives on the property who came by a few times. It went well.
The subject also says that on one occasion, a stranger stopped by, and said he was a tourist. I knew he was from the police, the subject says, but he did not see anything.
As the time of the operation came closer, the subject said that he got anxious about the operation day. I have never hurt a mouse my whole life, he says, and he tried to simulate the operation to avoid being paralyzed by fear. The subject says he tried to use computer games to practice, but could not do it. WoW is not like real life, he says.
The subject says he also listened to music by the group SAGA, and artist Helene Bøksle to prepare for the day of the operation, July 22. He eventually became convinced that the best preparation to suppress fear would be to be mentally exhausted.
About 22 July 2011, the day of the detonation by the government building and the executions on Utøya, the subject says: The plan was to be in Oslo, and start the transmission of the compendium at 03:00. But I was delayed at Åsta, and was not in Oslo until 23:00 the day before. The subject then stayed in his mother’s apartment in Skøyen until the next day.
The subject said he was very tired and thought he needed sleep and rest before the operation. He therefore slept until eight o’clock, and started the day by making three packed lunches, sandwiches with cheese and ham. He had hoped to be at the government building at 10:00, but started the day by installing a new high speed modem and configuring Outlook on his PC. This took more time than he had planned, and he panicked, worrying about time.
The subject drove the only car he had at his disposal, the Diablo, and parked it on Hammersborg square. He left some equipment in the vehicle, did some reconnaissance in the Grubbegaten street, and walked to the Domkirkeplassen square. Here he took a taxi back to Skøyen. He says: Realized that I did not have much time. I started to realize that most people had left the government building already.
Back in his mother’s apartment, the subject uploaded a film he had made to the website YouTube. He wrote the last message in the compendium at 14.45, and then began to send the compendium to the 8,000 cultural conservatives whose e-mail addresses he had collected. Since it was getting late, the subject says he thought about leaving out either the bomb or Utøya. But when I saw 600 e-mails had been sent at 15.05, I decided to follow the plan, he says.
The subject walked to the car he had parked by Olsens Enke at Skøyen. He got into the car, and changed from civilian to military clothing. He then drove to the government building via the National Theater. He had intended to attach the PST logos he had in the car with magnets, but did not do that. However, he attached blue lights on the roof of the car, about 200 meters from the target.
The subject said that he intended to drive with the police in tow in case someone attempted to stop him when driving the Grubbegata street in the wrong direction. The plan was to wipe out the police if they tried to stop me, he says.
The subject says he was thinking: Most people in the government quarters have left now at two o’clock during the summer vacation. I thought already then that the operation was a failure, but I did the best I could. The subject says he ideally envisioned that the Prime Minister and two or thee ministers and many political secretaries would die. But an added bonus was that Delta and the police also had vacation.
The government building is the place in Norway where there are the fewest civilians, the subject says. There will always be someone, that’s just the way it is. The goal was the largest possible number of A-and B-traitors, and the lowest possible number of civilians and police.
The subject adds: We accept up to 50% dead civilians. It is impossible to determine completely in advance. It’s just chosen that way. We have calculated that there would be few civilian deaths at first, but then the objectives will be secured and there will be more because of imprecise attacks.
The subject smiles: Am incredibly pleased with the small number of dead civilians in the operation. An ex-policeman and only four civilians. Fewer than 10%. In war there are always civilian casualties, unfortunately. We regard the Labour Party as a terrorist organization, and this hit pretty accurately.
The experts ask if the subject that day had thoughts about putting the plan away, to save lives, or for other reasons. No, the subject says. I never thought about turning back, or stopping. I only thought about getting it done. The subject denies having made thoughts about the victims’ situation. The dehumanization process started already when I wrote the military section of the compendium in 2009, the subject says, or already in 2002, when I committed to a life of suffering. The subject says that after this he has not have had pangs of conscience linked to what he calls executions. In war, the rules are different, he adds.
The subject says: When I stopped 200 meters from the target, that was a moment of great importance. This is what I have trained for and have been trained to do, I thought. The experts ask who taught him. It is at an abstract level, the subject says. He smiles broadly. I am very proud of the operation, he adds. All in all it was a 100% success.
The experts ask what makes him so sure that the operation is a success. The subject smiles: At that moment, I was not comfortable, I was in mortal danger, but I dehumanized the enemy, the operation was justified because of the war crimes of the power elite.
I had a pause. Sat for two minutes in the car. The subject laughs out loud. I considered dipping tobacco or smoke, but dropped it and put on the bullet-proof vest and the helmet with a visor.
The subject said he had calculated that there was about 5% chance he would survive the detonation of the government building. He says: I thought: Now I’m going to die in two minutes. The plan was to eliminate the police or security staff if anyone tried to stop me.
The subject says that the bomb in the car he drove to the government building had the most explosive force to one side. There were, however, two cars inconveniently parked outside the high rise building, so the subject simply had to park where there was room, without taking into account what was ideal.
I lit the fuse, he says, and was afraid that everything would detonate. He explains to the experts how he had calculated how long the fuse would have to be for him to make it back to the other car. The subject got out of the car where the bomb was, and took his Glock pistol from the holster while walking to Hammersborg square.
I had six minutes, and walked quickly. I walked past a man who was curious, the subject says. Think he was a civilian police officer. The subject assumes that pictures of him had been sent to several government buildings, and that the man he met was there to verify the car or me. If he had attacked, I would have executed him, he adds.
After getting into the car he had parked on Hammersborg square, the subject says that he turned on the ignition, set the GPS, and drove off. I heard a bang after driving two blocks, he says, adding: I had the «Spanish riders» and smoke bombs to throw at any pursuers, but I did not see any.
The subject turned on the radio and heard that there had been a powerful bomb on the Youngstorget square. They said that a person was dead in the government building. Then I knew that this part of the operation was unsuccessful, he explains.
When asked, the subject denies having experienced psychiatric symptoms of any quality in the weeks before, or at the time of the operation. He is specifically asked about the occurrence or experience of consciousness changes, including convulsions and loss of consciousness, and somatic symptoms. The subject denies any presence of such symptoms related to the days before, or at the time of operation on 22 July 2011.
The subject himself adds: I think I will be killed in prison within 12 months. They put right wing radicals like myself in Muslim-dominated prisons. There are examples of dozens killed and forced conversions in prisons. This happens when you don’t segregate prisoners. It will be one crusader against 100 jihadists. It is deliberate.
All Muslims at Ila know about it and will try to kill me soon. The subject does not think the management at Ila Prison will try to protect him. He says: Muslims can be allies, and there are many networks of Muslims in prison. Despite his conviction that he will be stabbed in a matter of months, the subject denies having feelings of fear or other emotions related to this. As he explains this, he appears without activation, or visibly affected.
The conversation is ended. It is agreed to continue pursuing the topic in the next conversation with the experts.
Current status by both experts on 5 September 2011
The subject is awake, in clear consciousness, and aware of time and place and situation. Intelligence clinically assessed to be in the normal range. The subject uses numerical values and percentages to a greater extent than is common in regular speech. He uses a technical, unemotional and not very dynamic language in the conversation.
He uses unusual terms such as dehumanization, preventive war, potential traitors, assassinations, military clothing, eradicate, eliminate, and war crimes of the power elite. The terminology used is entirely linked to the subject’s notion that there is a civil war going on in the country. The terminology used is considered to be grounded in paranoid delusions.
He appears emotionally shallow, with complete emotional distance to his situation, his victims and to the experts. He is polite and cooperates to the best of his ability. He laughs and smiles quite often, when related to issues concerning his own individual significance and/or his actions.
The subject has a light glaring look and blinks a lot. He appears with a somewhat reduced facial expression and a somewhat rigid body language, as he moves very little in the chair during the hours of conversation.
The subject is not able to recognize or describe his own feelings. He appears thus with alexithymia and prominent emotional numbing.
He has not had any thoughts about the victims’ situation and can not take their perspective when directly asked. He is considered to have a severe, almost total empathic failure.
The subject believes that his motive for the executions is to reorganize the political scale. He expects that his actions will lead to sympathy and support of millions of Europeans and that his policies will be the dominant political orientation of the future. The ideas are considered as grandiose delusions.
He emphasizes that the main motive for the killings was that the operation expresses my love for my people and country and will contribute to getting rid of the evil in the country. He believes that he, despite the perceived risk for own life, sacrificed himself for his people. He believes that the records of his actions during this period will provide guidelines for similar actions to future revolutionaries. The ideas are considered as grandiose delusions.
The subject says that in August 2010, he had not yet determined who or which institutions to attack and kill, but that he from this time and onwards began efforts to obtain weapons and a few months later also explosives. The subject justifies the planning as follows: We have declared preemptive war against those who belong to category A and B. There are about 4,500 people in total.
He had different plans, including blowing up the government building, a detonation at the royal castle and killing the royal family, killing Blitzers, the Dagsavisen newspaper, and at the socialist party’s headquarters. He also describes persistent thoughts about blowing up the Labour Party’s national convention and the Skup conference for journalists.
From January 2011, he describes persistent thoughts and plans to detonate the nuclear reactor in Halden and set off bombs on the Labour party’s or the socialist party’s national conventions. He still considered blowing up the royal castle. From February, he explains that it was a goal to kill as many as possible in the government building, preferrably including the prime minister and a couple of other ministers.
The ideas about murders referred to as executions are justified by the subject’s notion that all the aforementioned in a very concrete way represent individuals who are betraying Norway. He decided to kill Gro Harlem Brundtland and the participants at the AUF youth summer camp in June 2011. He believes that Labor is a terrorist organization. He believes he by taking the lives of these people would help to get rid of evil in the country.
The subject thinks he soon will be killed and believes that the prison management tacitly agrees.
The ideas are considered to be an all-encompassing, paranoid delusional system, with fear for his own life and extensive thoughts on homicide of several thousand people. The subject seems to have begun to act on the basis of these delusions during the course of 2010.
The subject appears to have an unclear identity feeling, as he switches between describing himself in the singular and plural.
The experts have occasionally had difficulty in following the subject. In parts of the conversation, he appears to have a moderate association disorder and formal thought disorder in the form of perseveration. There is no latency or thought block during the conversation.
The subject appears completely without depressive thoughts in the form of guilt, shame, hopelessness, or thoughts about his own death by suicide. He denies experiencing sadness, joylessness, reduced initiative or lack of initiative. There is thus no evidence of a depressed mood.
The subject does not exhibit increased psychomotorical tempo, or perceived, high mood. The subject’s speech is coherent and with normal syntax. He has no mind or voice strain. He is «affect stable». There is no evidence of lack of impulse control, neither verbally nor physically. There is thus no evidence of a high mood.
The subject appears without clinical suspicion of being intoxicated. The subject denies having suicidal thoughts or plans.