5.3 Third interview by both experts on 23 August 2011
Like the last time, the experts meet the subject in a large room at Ila prison and detention center. The Norwegian Correctional Services has approved that the visit takes place without the use of a glass wall between the subject and the experts. As in the first conversation, there were three conference tables between the experts and the subject and two prison guards were present during the conversation. The subject showed up in transportation belts with his right hand free.
The subject greets the experts in a friendly manner and begins by saying: I have read the foundation of psychoanalysis. I work with a lot of experience and have written everything in the compendium. He wonders if the experts have read his manifest and says now do you begin to get a good foundation for my psychoanalysis? The experts explain that our role is to answer the court’s mandate and that this is probably not equivalent to a psychoanalysis, neither in form nor in content.
The conversation lasted for nearly three hours.
About his involvement in political work, the subject says that he joined the youth organization of the Progress Party (FPU) when he was 16 years old. He explains: I was in a bad environment before it, Hip-Hop and concerts at Blitz. Was close to the Norwegian-Pakistani gangster community. I was “the cool potato.” I fasted, and witnessed much of the A and B gang’s activities. Hip-Hop, Blitz, gangs and gangsters, it was a soup, in a way.
The subject says that what he had experienced was low-intensity jihad. It was the Pakistani gangs who took the subway to the western parts of Oslo, robbed, raped, mutilated and went back to the Muslim enclaves in the east. Furuset and Holmlia and places like that.
The experts ask what the subject’s role in this was. His replies: Was never a part of it, but heard about it. And I was present twice when it was “Muslims against Muslims,” but I was not an active part. Was part of the Tåsen community and Muslims came by to its territories. Those were anarcho-jihadists.
The experts ask the subject to explain his terminology. The subject explains: It is from Al Qaeda, the gangster community where anarcho-marxists, which are blitzers, someone who serves the people. The experts still do not understand the terms. The subject elaborates: anarcho- is short for anarchism, it can be anarcho-marxists, anarcho-jihadists, anarcho-nationalists. The subject says he has created the words himself, because they were missing.
The subject then gives a very detailed explanation of how he when he was 15 heard about and partly found himself on the fringes of the communities where these groups were involved in fighting, raping, threatening and making mutual agreements. He emphasizes that he never personally was in contact with the A-and B-gang, but knew people through his friend XXXXX who could mobilize friends from there.
The subject says that this laid the foundation for his political interest, because he saw low-intensity jihad up close, and saw how necessary vigilantes were demonized as Nazis. It was a reprehensible system. A pragmatic approach was needed.
The subject says that everything intensified after the break up with XXXXX. I interpreted it as if he wanted me to convert. He despised everything Norwegian. We had built up a network of contacts and XXXXX began to slander me and wanted to burn the bridges to my network.
The experts ask what specifically happened at the break up between him and XXXXX. The subject says: He lied. And said to a girl that I had said she was ugly. It came to a confrontation, and XXXXX threatened to use violence.
The subject says that this led him to understand the Norwegian values. He joined the FPU and read about the party’s ideology. He adds: Was very much against the PLO. As long as the state is sending money to the PLO, tagging Oslo Tramways can be justified.
The subject says he gradually became more active in the FPU, and at age 19 got to be vice chairman in FPU - Oslo West. He says with a smile that he quickly became known and he is sure that everyone there remembers him from that time.
About his work commitments from 1999, the subject explains that he obtained new capital raised through his second engagement in Direct Response Service (DRS). Almost parallel with this he met XXXXX, he was 15 years older and a brilliant businessman. He became a kind of mentor. I got help with a business plan. He adds: And then I met XXXXX daughter of Marxist XXXXX at that time. She became a capitalist. The subject decided to build a series of outdoor boards in Oslo.
He started the company Media Group, and hired an acquaintance, XXXXX. The friends XXXXX worked with capitalization. They created databases of potential investors, he explains. Many meetings were held with potential investors, but they were unable to obtain capital.
[…]
In this part of the conversation, it is difficult to follow the subject in his reasoning, but it appears that he ran the company for a year, until he was contacted by Media Group and Media Max, companies that wanted to buy the leases the subject’s company had been able organize. He says: They eventually bought XXXXX a kind of compensation, received 150,000 and 50,000, was left with between 100,000 and 300,000 in early 2000. He says that he transferred his company to Media Max.
In the following period, the subject says that he became more active in FPU, and was living off savings from Media Group. He says he had a strict study regime and read the university curriculum for the MBA program in the period from 1999 to 2000. Knew people who were or were to about start the business school BI and then I got the syllabus from them. The books were in English.
The subject believes he has read the curriculum for the title “Bachelor of small business and management”, although he skipped some subjects on the list of required reading he borrowed. He read economics, finance, business psychology, management, sales and marketing strategies.
In the autumn of 2000, the subject went back to working at DRS and says that he became manager of the business department. He also worked actively in the Progress Party’s Frogner department.
In the spring of 2001, he used the accumulated capital, and started a new company, this time with a bike board, where the plan was to get an unemployed academic to ride around the city with billboards mounted on a bicycle. The subject estimates that he spent six months on this and created a prototype in his basement. A board (large advertising poster, experts note) would be attached to a trailer, which then would be attached to a bicycle.
The subject got a contract with Platekompaniet, but failed to build the device solid enough. After only one day of bicycling, the poster was blown off by the wind and hit a lady. The company was shut down and it earned no income.
In the summer of 2001, the subject got a seat in the board of Frogner Progress Party. He decided to pursue a career through the Progress Party. He was elected for two boards, The Supervisory Board for Majorstua nursing homes, and Deputy to the Board at the Uranienborg school. He attended one meeting of the nursing home board, but never at the school board. He did however attend all the events organized by the party, both courses and meetings.
The subject says he spent a lot of energy on building alliances and made a very good impression there. He got to know a lot of people. Salesmen like me tend to do exceptionally well, he adds. The experts ask in what way he did exceptionally well. It was the social bit, the subject says. It was through socialization. Unfortunately, I never got to prove my skills, but everybody noticed that I was exceptionally good in discussions.
The experts ask how the subject noticed that he did such a good impression. The subject smiles and says: A person can say five words and it tells me 2000 words. So I understood. They would have described me as an aspiring young man.
The subject says he was still working for Direct Response Services in the autumn of 2001, in a department called SMT, where he became responsible for Bankia Bank. He says he knew all the people in the company at this time and that one of his superiors, XXXXX, probably would have said of him that he generated a lot of money. His own company was still registered, but it was inactive after the failed bike board project.
The subject says that this fall he was nominated for a seat in the city council. When asked about the process leading up to this, the subject says that he was to be interviewed by the nomination committee. The subject says: I got the support of some, but Gøran Kalmyr was in the picture. I was more popular than him, but ended up on 20th place, I think, or 23rd, and only the top two make it to the list for the municipal election. This was the nomination for the election in 2003.
After this, the subject was unsure whether he would continue his political career. The topics he was interested in, military affairs, immigration and culture, were not as prominent in local politics. I would be a better fit for the parliament group, he says, adding: But I would have had to get my education accredited before any nomination to Parliament. The press requires it.
The experts ask if he wanted to end up higher up in party politics. Most people in politics have ambitions to get into government or become prime minister, the subject says. So I did, of course. Was planning to get into Parliament, possibly in government. If I had worked hard, I would for sure have made it into the city council the next time. But politics was just a side mission. I wanted to see how quickly one could climb. That was not a problem.
The subject says that he at this time had concluded that Europe had to be rescued from a Muslim takeover. He started reading a lot of ideological literature.
In the spring of 2002, the subject gave up his involvement in the Progress Party. He justifies this by saying that he had lost confidence in the democratic processes. At that time I knew so many members of parliament that I realized that the Progress Party would never be in a position to change Norway. The party is edited and it would be impossible to become prime minister through democratic processes, he says.
Unofficially, one can say that it is due to two factors, he says. One. To get in position, you need to be clean. Two. Secret manifestations may evolve. Sleeper seeds or cells. For me there was a progressive build-up of motivation. The tipping point was the NATO invasion of Serbia in April 1999. The story Norwegians know is distorted. There were 5000 jihadists who slaughtered Christians. The media were dominated by Marxists and this has not been emphasized. I thought that next time NATO will bomb us, when we want to deport Muslims. I think something similar will happen in Norway and Oslo.
After he was out of party politics, he began to discuss politics on the Internet. I got to know people online, he says, and joined a network. He adds: I was very ambitious at the time and wanted a leading role. So on May 1st 2002, I was a Norwegian delegate in London at the inaugural meeting of Knights Templar. The subject adds that this is a pan-European parent organization. He says: I decided to save Europe when I was 23 years old. That is to head down a road where it is not easy to turn back.
The subject explains that he had first thought to be a funder for the organization Norwegian Defense League. I made one million before I was 24 years old, he says, and 6 million before I was 26. I wanted to give something back to my people. I decided to devote my life to Norway and Europe.
About his involvement in the organization Knights Templar, the subject says that he discovered it in April 2002. He says: The term or name was not used then. I can not tell you much about it. When asked about what he can tell, the subject says: I got to know individuals through the Internet. This was two or three weeks before the London meeting. Had to subsidize the travel myself. There was a Serb in Liberia. I was to give my proxy vote through him. The subject smiles and laughs loudly. Those were very particular circumstances. I spent three weeks in Liberia. The journey was perhaps a test for me, physically and mentally.
The subject explains that he then went to London and took part in a ritual similar to first degree Freemason rituals here at home.
The subject is asked by the experts if he has also participated in other meetings through the organization. There were two other meetings, he says, before and after Liberia. I wanted to choose the revolutionary road. I was asked. So I went. They wanted delegates from as many countries as possible, and I was selected after trials in debates, discussions, and other trials. I can’t say more than that, he adds.
The subject adds that he regarded the trip to Liberia as an opportunity to shape an ideology. Was trained theoretically by a Serb there. It was theoretical, not physical, revolutionary science. I prepared for the meeting in London.
The conversation ended with agreement to continue the topic later.
Current status by both experts on 23 August 2011
The subject is awake, in clear consciousness and aware of time and place and situation. Intelligence clinically assessed to be in the normal range. The subject uses numbers and values to a greater extent than is common in normal speech. He uses a technical, unemotional and not very dynamic language in the conversation.
He appears emotionally shallow, with complete emotional distance to his own situation and to the experts. He is polite and cooperates to the best of his ability. He laughs and smiles quite often, when related to issues concerning his own individual significance and/or his actions.
The subject has a light glaring look and blinks a lot. He appears with a somewhat reduced facial expression, and a somewhat rigid body language as he moves very little in the chair during the hours the conversation lasts.
The subject believes to know what people he is talking to think about, as he believes to know how former peers from the Progress Party would characterize him now. The phenomenon is considered to be psychotically based.
The subject believes to have been close to a number of known and disputed and/or criminal gangs in adolescence. He mentions both the Hip-hop community, the A- and B-gang, the Blitz community and the Tåsen community. When asked to give examples, he is vague, but quickly makes the generalization that what he had experienced was low-intensity jihad.
Similarly, he believes that the example where his former friend XXXXX allegedly said erroneously to a girl that the subject thought she was ugly made him understand the Norwegian values. The subject is by this assessed to be giving personal, private and trivial matters a general political importance.
The subject refers to the entire Norwegian population as my people. He believes he in 1999 needed only a year to read the entire curriculum for the MBA program, and did exceptionally well in the Progress Party. The phenomena are considered as expressions of delusions of grandeur.
The subject has constructed the words anarcho-marxists, anarcho-jihadists and anarcho-nationalists because he believes those terms were missing in the language. The phenomenon is considered to be neologisms.
The subject appears to have an unclear identity feeling, as he switches between describing himself in the singular and plural.
The experts have initially had difficulty in following the subject. In parts of the conversation, he is exhibiting a moderate association disorder and formal thought disorder in the form of perseveration. There is no latency or thought block during the conversation.
During the interview, the subject expresses thoughts about the Progress Party being edited and the story of the invasion of Serbia distorted by the media. The phenomena are considered to be paranoid delusions.
During the conversation, the subject says he participated in meetings in Liberia and London in 2002, having been asked to come to the meetings as a delegate from Norway. He appears to be covering up and secretive when asked to describe the meetings. The same is true when he is asked to explain how he communicated with the other meeting participants in advance. The phenomena are considered as possibly self-deluding or as auditory hallucinations.
The subject appears without depressive ideas in the form of guilt, shame, hopelessness or thoughts about his own death by suicide. He denies to have experienced sadness, joylessness, reduced initiative or lack of initiative. There is therefore no indication of a depressed mood.
The subject does not exhibit increased psychomotorical tempo or perceived high mood. The subject’s speech is coherent and with normal syntax. He has no mind - or voice strain. He is “affect stable”. There is no evidence of lack of impulse control, either verbally or physically. There is thus no evidence of a high mood. The subject denies having suicidal thoughts or plans.
5.4 Fourth interview by both experts on 25 August 2011
Like the last time, the experts meet the subject in a large room at Ila prison and detention center. The Norwegian Correctional Services has approved that the visit take place without the use of a glass wall between the subject and the experts. As in the first conversation, there were three conference tables between the experts and the subject, and two prison guards were present during the conversation. The subject showed up in transportation belts with his right hand free.
The conversation lasted for nearly three hours.
The subject initiated the conversation by saying that he wanted to explain the radicalization process better. He had been thinking about the topics that were brought up during the last conversation and wanted to elaborate on these. Originally, the agreement was that the conversation was to address the the subject’s future practical life, but the subject felt he needed to elaborate on other topics. This was granted.
The subject was very excited during this conversation, verbose and smiling. He had to be significantly structured, so that the experts could understand how the various topics were related. He explained:
At Ris School there was a victim of bullying, XXXXX. I used my social capital to protect him. I confronted the bullies, threatened them, I acted on my conscience, then as I do now.
The basis of the operation is that I am a prisoner of conscience, I can not sit and watch as we are losing our country. My people and their civilization are destroyed and I can not be looking at that. We, and I, are driven by conscience and love, not hate.
The experts request an elaboration of the term the operation. The subject says he is using the term about the events with the bomb by the Government buildings and the shooting at Utøya island on July 22, 2011.
It was like with XXXXX when my power was known, from the 9th grade. The higher grade wanted to attempt to humiliate us, but tried to stir up a fight, but I was central and fought for our grade. I was in the ring long enough to make the higher grade respect me and my power.
The experts ask the subject to explain how others could feel his power at that time. I had to take responsibility, the subject says. It was probably the value of the network that was most important and I had dominated the higher grade. It is in junior high you learn the honor codes, “don’t get angry, get even!”
Another factor the subject believes contributed to his radicalization process, is that he is a guy who get upset about things and with great knowledge of communication. And I can learn from physical and mental lows. It is a condition for becoming a good leader, he says.
A third factor the subject believes contributed to his radicalization process is that he was involved in eight clashes and also heard of 18 friends and friends of friends who were harassed and raped by Muslims in Oslo. He says: The view on political Islam changed as a result of my meetings with Islamic culture. He corrects himself and says: Maybe there were as many as 60 cases where I or acquaintances were victims of Islam in Norway. He adds: My information curve went up.
The subject further says that starting from when he was 22 years old, he studied political science at the on the Internet. It taught me about the demographic threat, he says. There is a war between Christians and Muslims and Islam is trying to take over.
He also believes that he was an entrepreneur at an early age and got to experience the bad treatment entrepreneurs are given by the Marxists in Norway.
He has also developed contempt for Marxist system failures, as in the Norwegian school. He saw a lack of morality and sexual anarchy, which also contributed to his radicalization. As an example of this he mentions XXXXXXXXXXXX. It was a direct result of the Marxist, sexual revolution.
He adds: In Scandinavia, England and Germany, women have too many sexual partners. All women become whores. I want to change Europe. Want to implement standards closer to Islam with regard to sexual morality.
Yet another factor the subject believed had contributed to the radicalization process he calls matriarchy. I have despised feminism since 2002, he says. It leads to dysfunctional families, and destruction of the nuclear family. The Marxist revolution is to blame. I grew up with two women, he adds, and it was a very feminist family.
The collectivist society and the anti-elitist attitudes also radicalized me, he says. I’m an individualist. Altogether, this led to me on May 1 2002 to decide to take the revolutionary road. I had understood that the media would prevent the Progress Party getting into power and I gave up democracy.
About his current role, the subject says: I am a leader through my compendium. It will be an ideological Wikipedia. It consists of a historical part, an ideological part and a military part. In addition, it has personal photos. The subject says that there is a picture of him, his mother, and his sister in the rear of the compendium. It is a shining symbol of success in the socioeconomic area, he adds.
The experts ask whether he has become a good leader now. I am a leader who is a beacon. With our French brothers, there is a language barrier, but I have worked with British nationalists, which is why the manifest is in English. Utøya island and the government building was all about publishing the manifest, to reach the 350,000 militant nationalists who are the audience. It will help the British to gain power in the UK.
The subject goes on to say: I am a leader in terms of being an ideologue. History will tell whether I will be recognized. The main objective is to distribute revolutionary literature. And everybody who has published a theory which is followed is a leader.
The experts ask if the subject’s leadership started even before 22 July 2011. The subject says: Not a conventional leadership, with the exception of two other cells. We have set up a special organizational structure.
The experts have difficulty understanding what the subject means and ask for an explanation. After the ritual one becomes Knight Chief Justice, “Man of law”, he says. It is a constructed concept. Can not take credit for everything, but I made that myself. A Commander is a man carrying an operation on his own shoulders. One must have professional qualifications.
About the Knights Templar, the subject says that it is a military order, which finances, plans, and conducts operations. He says that the organization was formed on ordination meeting where he attended in London in 2002. We were 12 people there, he says, from all over Europe. The basis for the organization is recruitment and it happens via the Internet.
The subject says that the inaugural meeting was in London and he arrived as the proxy for the one from Liberia. I met three or four people in London. The ritual was rather disappointing, but it was a proper ordination and delegates from several countries, even if I only had access to three other people. He corrects himself to that they were four people who together created a strategy. Everything happened in one day and he vowed to change Europe.
The subject smiles: From now on, all it takes is access to the compendium, he says. If you read it from the first word to the end, you will be radicalized. The manifest is both a tool and an application. The entire standard difficult recruitment process is being replaced. This is much more effective because the compendium is structured so that you are automatically radicalized.
When I left the meeting I knew I might have to take lives, he says. In advance, I had become convinced that Norway had to be overthrown with violence, the mother of all changes. If we do not save the European civilization, it will be overthrown and collapse. I had to help save the country.
Asked to tell what will happen if he had not intervened, the subject says: We would have lost enclave by enclave. Everybody in Oslo West would have to move to Bærum first, then down to Vestfold. So there would be violence and murder of everybody, and the Christians would be exterminated.
The subject says he received 60 pages of written documentation at the inaugural meeting in London. The rest of the compendium is my interpretation of what I have learned and been through. And then you can be Commander by having others under you in other ways, such as giving tombs to the martyrs. Logistics is important. We have to arrange practical things around the fallen martyrs.
The subject is asked how he sees the development of the ideology he presents in his compendium after 22 July 2011. He says: We shall not execute civilian brethren, but many civilians will die anyway. The purpose is to take power, but it must be done in consultation with the police. The subject explains that a civilian is someone who is not a political activist. He regards political activists as legitimate targets.
The subject says he is unsure how the operation will be reviewed by his peers. Mistakes will be made, he says, in the choice of time, place, and targets for our operations. Because of that, short-term, ideological disasters may occur.
In our organization, a person can become a one man army. I am a dedicated, independent, organizational cell unit. Single-cells do not cooperate with other cells. What is unique about us is that we focus only on single-cell operators.
The experts ask how his cell was activated. The subject responds: The commander in England said: “I want you to activate now.” The experts ask how and when this message was given to him. The subject smiles and says: I’ve already said too much.
The subject says he will explain more about the ordination process. One sacrifices a life of freedom for a life of suffering, he says. I swore an oath that I would dedicate my life to the struggle. At first I was planning to be a funder and we encourage that each person chooses how to carry out the battle. There is no support, either vertical or horizontal. Do not want to involve others.
The experts ask how the subject received his orders to turn activate his cell. The subject responds: I could have tried to hide that I was given an order, he said. But it is pure pragmatism to tell.
The experts ask who the subject is referring to when he uses the pronoun we. It is the 120 million supporters in Europe, he says. 15% of the population. Sometimes it is used on the Knights Templar, or I refer to the three in Norway.
The experts ask the subject if he has ever used thought transfer or telepathy to communicate with his peers. The subject laughs. It does not exist, he says. We are using technology. We communicate with the technology that makes it possible to mask IP addresses. There is such technology in the United States. It can not be traced.
The experts ask if the subject has ever heard voices. The subject laughs aloud, and denies this. But the codes in the compendium are found, I’ve heard, he says. The encryption is conventional. It is therefore only a limited method of communication. But one must have a scheme and a corresponding encoding scheme. So the codes are easy to crack and are not much used by us.
The experts ask again if the subject can explain how his own single cell organization was activated. The subject says: Well, I must say that it may have happened by enabling myself, for example one minute before, or it can not be ruled out that someone from abroad activated me, for example, three months before. The subject smiles mysteriously. I cannot let you know this, he adds.
About the organization Knights Templar in Norway, the subject says that it consists of three people. We have a strategy ready to come to power, he says laughing. I look at the stage I’m in now as part three and the operation is not over for me. Our brothers will take power in 15 years and so we can plan a coup d’etat.
The experts ask what has qualified the subject to take power in Norway. He says: It is my 15,000 study hours. The goal is to take over Western Europe. The subject becomes very enthusiastic, saying: A guardian council shall be established with national sovereignty. The Guardian Council will reverse the damage that has happened to our country. National commanders will recognize me as an ideological leader and one option is that I will be the new regent in Norway.
The conversation is ended and there is consensus that we will come back to this topic.
Current status by both experts on 25 August 2011
The subject is awake, in clear consciousness and aware of time and place and situation. Intelligence clinically assessed to be in the normal range. The subject uses numerical values to a greater degree than is common in speech. He uses in the conversation a technical, non-emotional, and not very dynamic language.
He appears emotionally shallow, with complete emotional distance to his own situation and to the experts. He is polite and cooperates to the best of his ability. He laughs and smiles quite often, when related to issues concerning his own individual significance and/or his actions.
The subject has a light glaring look and blinks a lot. He appears with a somewhat reduced facial expression and a somewhat rigid body language as he moves very little in the chair during the hours the conversation lasts.
The subject gives detailed information about what he calls his own radicalization process. To explain why he chose the revolutionary path, he mentions among other things an experience of a fight in the schoolyard during junior high school, the fact that he heard about a number of friends and acquaintances who were harassed and raped by Muslims, XXXXXXXXXXXX and that he grew up with his mother and sister. The subject is by this considered to attribute great political significance to personal, private and trivial matters.
The subject presents the idea that if he and his organization do not intervene, everybody living in Oslo West is threatened by violence and murder. He believes that all Christians will be destroyed and must evacuate to Vestfold. He believes that civilization is about to go bust. The symptoms are considered to be paranoid delusions.
The subject refers to the population of Norway as my people. He believes that the compendium he has written is of such a quality that anyone who reads it will automatically be radicalized. The subject believes that he shall change Europe and save society from ruin. He wants to be either the leader, or the new regent in Norway. The phenomena are considered as expressions of delusions of grandeur.
The subject has constructed the words Knight Chief Justice and domination, because he believes that the terms were missing in the language. The phenomenon is considered to be neologisms.
The subject appears to have an unclear identity feeling, as he switches between describing himself in the singular and plural.
The experts have occasionally had difficulty in following the subject. He exhibits in parts of the conversation to have a moderate association disorder and formal thought disorder in the form of perseveration. There is no latency or thought block during the conversation.
The subject appeared without objective evidence of auditory hallucinations. He denied hearing voices, or having experienced telepathy. He says however that he received an order from the commander in England who said: I want you to activate now. He appears smiling, covered and secretive when asked to elaborate on this. He describes contact with peers through technology that can not be traced. The phenomena are considered as possible self delusions or auditory hallucinations.
The subject describes in the conversation that many people, both legitimate targets and civilians, will perish. He believes that Norway must be overthrown by violence. The phenomena are considered to be extensive thoughts of violence and killing.
The subject appears without depressive thoughts in the form of guilt, shame, hopelessness or thoughts about his own death by suicide. He denies experiencing sadness, joylessness, reduced initiative or lack of initiative. There is thus no evidence of a depressed mood.
The subject does not exhibit increased psychomotorical tempo or perceived, high mood. The subject’s speech is coherent and with normal syntax. He has no mind or voice strain. He is “affect stable”. There is no evidence of lack of impulse control, neither verbally nor physically. There is thus no evidence of a high mood.
The subject denies having suicidal thoughts or plans.
5.5 Fifth interview by both experts on 30 August 2011
Like the last time, the experts meet the subject in a large room at Ila prison and detention center. The Norwegian Correctional Services has approved that the visit take place without a glass wall between the subject and the experts. As in the first conversation, there were three conference tables between the experts and the subject and two prison guards were present during the conversation. The subject showed up in transportation belts with his right hand free.
The conversation lasted for nearly three hours.
It is agreed that the topic of conversation will revolve around the spring of 2002, since we left the collection of anamnestic data at that time during the third conversation. The subject was willing to do so.
Throughout the conversation it turned out that the subject constantly had to be helped to keep to a chronological presentation, as he would otherwise very quickly start talking about Knights Templar and his compendium. When he talks about topics from his compendium or the Knights Templar, the subject is stimulated, with blushing, fast and verbose speech, frequent smiles and easy laughter. The subject is not so interested in other topics.
About the spring of 2002, when the subject was 22 years old, he says: This was the end of my immoral period. I took a settlement with my life and my sexual morality and began to go in another direction. I decided to go in another direction and use my future capital to stop the islamization of Europe.
The subject says he decided to make 30 millions to fund the cause. I realized that no one else would take responsibility and took the lead. Revolution starts with one step.
The subject says he made his first million one year after the decision to stop feeding my own ego. I wanted to save Europe. I changed at the time. After so many years of hardening in business, I was ready to get positive results. I had undergone a remarkable development, both intellectually and in terms of knowledge.
About the autumn of 2002, the subject says that he started a new company on his own. The experts ask if his future, economic earnings were reflected in his tax records. No, the subject says. At the end of 2002, I ran the company “e-commerce group.” The money was generated in the U.S. and the Bahamas, on anonymous debit cards. It was already decided that I would use the money for moral work.
At that time, the subject lived with friends XXXXXXXX in Oslo, where he had a home office. The company was created while he was working for DRS and was involved in outsourcing of software services. He says that he does not remember exactly when he left DRS/SMT, but thinks it must have been around this time.
Over the New Year in 2003, the subject moved to XXXXX where he lived in a two-room apartment by himself. It was a “best location”, he says, had a good time as bachelor as close to Bogstadveien street as I could be. It was a social transit place, where all the friends from Oslo West kept stopping by. The subject says he had a Polish cleaner for the first years in XXXXX, but that his mother cleaned for him the last year before he moved back home to her in 2006.
The subject says that he hired a person in his company here in Norway, but that he can not say his name because he was paid in cash. In addition, the subject says that he eventually hired more programmers in Indonesia, had two employees in Romania and two or three employees in Russia. The subject said these were employed in 2003 and 2004.
About this period, the subject says that one of his employees was really good at programming, he showed me a lot. I studied IT and language and there was plenty to pay attention to. He says: The business concept of “e-commerce group” was to provide online services where you could find programmers in low cost countries.
The experts ask how he got assignments for the firm. The subject says he used search engines with keywords. “Search engine optimization”, he adds. You can program homepages so that they will be listed at the top of search pages. The experts do not fully understand how this generated jobs for his company. I came in contact with the customer, he says, adding: I did not program, the others did the work. I sold the employees’ intellectual capital and was left with the profits. I delegated as much as possible. As the workload increased, I hired more people.
The subject adds that he was humble in the beginning. I thought, okay, I’ll get 30 million before I’m 30. A family would be irresponsible, I would “betray” all. Let’s say that Labor began moving all Muslims to the West End, should I move to Bærum then, and be a coward?
The subject says that in the period 2002 to 2006, he only had thoughts of being a funder of Knights Templar and the struggle. He adds: It was not until 2007 that I decided to become a martyr.
In the years I lived in XXXXX, I was also into aggressive ‘trading’ of stocks, the subject says. Two million were channeled and released, but I lost a million or two, put a lot of eggs in one basket. The goal was 30 million. But I realized after the loss that I would not achieve the goal of the 30 million, so I gave up my plan A, which was to finance the organization Knights Templar. I began to despise the whole “game”.
The subject says that in the period from 2003 to 2006, he made an insane amount of money and got as many women I wanted. When I was 24, I had earned 1 million and when I was 26 years, I had earned 6 million. He spent the money in Norway, using anonymous debit cards. When asked, the subject believes that he channeled and spent about three millions in Norway.
The subject says that in this period he worked long hours, partied a lot and did some traveling. He describes having a good relationship with his mother, his half siblings and his sister XXXXX. He wrote essays, participated in online discussions and practiced writing from scratch. The subject adds: I wanted to be the perfect knight and the aim was to contribute to Knights Templar.
The subject says he gradually withdrew from the “game” and put less emphasis on his social life. In 2006, he found out that the annual 144,000 it cost him to live in a two-room apartment was not worth it and decided to move home to his mother XXXXXXXXXXX in Oslo.
The experts ask again how his tax records from this period look like. The subject responds: I did not take out a salary. It does not look like I earned much. I had finished the project in 2006, it was not going well enough anymore and it went bankrupt. I had to lay off the employees.
The experts wonder if some of the six million earned are still unused. I think there was one account in the Bahamas and three in Antigua. Do not quite remember. There were two million in the bank in Antigua when I finished. They are all spent now. I used 700,000 to finance the operation.
The subject says that he spent largest amount of money in the period from 2007 onwards when he wrote his compendium. He says: It cost two million. It went to living expenses for four years. I took out money from Antigua to live, so there is nothing left of the money anymore.
The subject moved home to his mother in 2006. The idea of martyrdom was born when I moved back home to my mother, the subject says, but it was put on hold for a year because I wanted to give myself a martyrdom gift, and play World of Warcraft (WoW) for a year first.
The subject explains that he compared it with someone deciding to take a break from the career to take a year off sailing. (WoW is a role play where the player by connecting to a server, is participating in an online game with communication with other players, expert’s note)
The subject had already begun to play a year before, while living in XXXXX. For one year he played 10 to 12 hours a day. He turned the day around, playing at night. He says: I was in one of Europe’s top “guilds”, he says. (Fellowship or group of players, expert’s note). The subject adds: I got tremendous experience in the course of that year. I learned about information, logistics, distribution of work.
The subject says: Headhunting to recruit the right people to “guilds” was a big job. He participated in several guilds and says he had a leadership role in all. The subject smiles. We were of course the best, he says, everything I touch becomes the best.
The subject says he stopped playing full time in February 2007. At this time, he was living in his bedroom at home with his mother. He stopped playing because he began to write. In addition, it took more and more time to be online to seek information and to read what others wrote on blogs and websites.
The subject says that he informed his mother that he was not at work because he was writing a book about European conservatism. The subject says that he did not reveal to his mother that he was working on organizing a military takeover of Europe. The book was initially also moderate. The subject says that he in the period 2007 to 2009 stepped down his social life to a natural, pragmatic closing. Had to ensure “secrecy” and tried to create a “cover” by saying I was playing.
The subject estimates that he was into 25 to 30 sites where there were political discussion activity at this time. He smiles and says: Got to be an expert in argumentation techniques against Islam at this time. He says that he also wrote “essays” that he tried to publish via the usual channels, but that they were all censored.
In the period from February 2007 to November 2009, the subject spent most of his waking hours writing. He says: That was the writing phase. I still played WoW, but a lot less. I had a very good relationship with my mother. We ate together, there was otherwise little contact. Spent most of my time in my room. What I wrote was becoming increasingly politically incorrect.
The subject says that he already in 2002 had vowed to live for the struggle, but for a long time it was unclear in what form this should happen. Around the time of moving to mother, the idea was reinforced. The subject smiles. Plan B became Plan A in 2007. I started the book and eventually realized I had to become an activist, not a funder.
The experts ask what the subject means by the word activist. The subject responds by that he means planning and carrying out executions. He adds: This is not the same as murder, as you say. I completely disagree. When the compendium was almost completed in 2009, the thoughts emerged that it is necessary. This is why the military part of the compendium is written last.
About his compendium, the subject says that he from 2007 wrote Part 1: History and Part 2: Ideology first. Part 3, military section was written last and the operational part, with a description of the operation, after that again. The plan about necessary executions emerged as I wrote in 2009, he says.
The subject talks enthusiastically and quickly. The truth of the victors after World War II was to be known. Everything should be documented. When I started, the perspective was not decided, but I would find the truth. About 30% of the compendium is “cut and paste”. The hidden part of the history was to be documented.
The subject says: The work is outstanding. Our, the crusader nationalist version, the real truth. The only real alternative to National Socialism. We, the revolutionary order, will take over Western Europe during a 60-year period. The work is the first step, a groundbreaking start. It can not be read without the reader being radicalized.
The subject continues: Our entrance, with new history and new ideology. The experts ask who the subject is referring to when using the pronoun we. He responds: I - we, it’s the same. Knights Templar, the revolutionary order.
The experts ask how the subject was in contact with other members of Knights Templar while working on the book. The subject looks down. Will not say who or where, he says. When it comes to those who are ordained, I can not talk about or name them. I got 60 pages of documentation at the meeting in London and later there has been minimal contact. They have contributed a minimum.
The experts say that the use of the term we is unusual, if it is true that the subject has largely been alone on the work. The subject can not explain this, but continues to speak using the we form.
The subject maintains that he in all the years since 2002 have had extensive communication with others over the Internet. He denies that what he read on blogs, discussion forums and games was directly aimed at him and adds: No, it was beyond their mandate.
He says he has received something in code, but it has been less than 1% of the time I had to decode material on the net. The subject smiles and adds: The police are so interested in it. You can believe what you want. It was not up to me to interpret it, not to invent it. The subject goes on to say: Important things within the Knights Templar are coded, but we use a very primitive method. Mostly we used safer technology, such as encryption on servers.
The experts ask the subject to explain why he said it was his martyrdom gift to play WoW for one year. The subject smiles. It was only half clear at the time that I would become a martyr, he said. The civil war had to wait, I’m probably pretty selfish. But it will come and we expect to take power in Europe, he says.
The conversation is ended.
Current status by both experts on 30 August 2011
The subject is awake, in clear consciousness and aware of time and place and situation. Intelligence clinically assessed to be in the normal range. The subject uses numerical values to a greater degree than is common in speech. He uses in the conversation a technical, non-emotional, and not very dynamic language.
He appears emotionally shallow, with complete emotional distance to his own situation and to the experts. He is polite and cooperates to the best of his ability. He laughs and smiles quite often, when related to issues concerning his own individual significance and/or his actions.
The subject has a light glaring look and blinks a lot. He appears with a somewhat reduced facial expression and a somewhat rigid body language as he moves very little in the chair during the hours the conversation lasts.
The subject claims to be the perfect knight, who will save Europe. He claims to have been among Europe’s best online players. He considers his previous engagements in various business ventures to have made insane amounts of money, although this did not appear from his tax records. He claims he was having a number of employees in his companies, even though he can not name them. The companies were closed down and went bankrupt. The ideas are considered as grandiose delusions.
In addition he exhibits a wealth of psychotic delusions of a grandiose nature, exemplified by the ideas of his own sovereignty related to his written work and the work’s overall impact on a future civil war and the seizure of power in Europe.
The subject says he has been searching for the truth about the time after the Second World War, which he believes is concealed. The ideas are considered to be paranoid delusions.
The subject uses the term martyrdom gift. The phenomenon is considered as neologisms. The subject uses English words and phrases. Examples include trading, betray, secrecy and cover. The terms are related to the subject’s experienced identity as an expert, as well as a financial and commercial success.
The subject appears to have an unclear identity perception, as he switches between describing himself in the singular and plural.
The experts have occasionally had difficulty in following the subject. He exhibits in parts of the conversation to have a moderate association disorder and formal thought disorder in the form of perseveration. There is no latency or thought block during the conversation.
The subject appeared without objective evidence of auditory hallucinations. He denied hearing voices or having experienced telepathy. The subject denies receiving messages through the Internet directly aimed at him, but confirmed to have had extensive communication with others through technology that can not be traced. He confirms to have interpreted codes. The phenomena are considered as possible self delusions or auditory hallucinations.
The subject describes in the conversation that he since 2009 has seen himself as an activist, who plans and carries out executions. The phenomena are considered to be extensive thoughts of violence and killing.
The subject appears without depressive thoughts in the form of guilt, shame, hopelessness or thoughts about his own death by suicide. He denies to have experienced sadness, joylessness, reduced initiative or lack of initiative. There is therefore no indication of a depressed mood.
The subject does not exhibit increased psychomotor tempo or perceived high mood. The subject’s speech is coherent and with normal syntax.
He has no mind or voice strain. He is “affect stable”. There is no evidence of lack of impulse control, neither verbally nor physically. There is thus no evidence of a high mood.
The subject denies having suicidal thoughts or plans.
